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tv   The Dylan Ratigan Show  MSNBC  June 14, 2011 4:00pm-5:00pm EDT

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blut -- >> you should ask them to do that. to help you understand what's about to happen. i'm wearing a lovely scarf. beautiful. a friend of mine gave it to me. >> i wonder where that came from jthts i thinkical icalactually . it came from you. i'm grateful and wanted to thank you for giving me such a generous gift. >> i'm delighted. >> however -- however -- a couple things to clear the air. one, this is supposed to be a secure environment. apparently you can walk in anybody's office, do whatever you want when they're not around. leave packages. brian williams works here, matthews, walk in. that's an issue for security. you told me you brought this back from the royal wedding? >> it actually was ordered from a store in london. i saw it in port smyth in london and ordered it to you and it was shipped to a store here and i picked it up here on sunday. >> is that the answer you want to go with?
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that is the answer i'm going with. >> i can't help but notice the tag says barney's new york, martin. >> that is the store to which is was delivered. >> how did he get me a scarf. >> a royal wedding scarf. a very fashionable scarf. >> okay. >> it is. it is actually from london. i thank you. chewed up a bunch of time when we should be talking about jobs in america. >> some people would appreciate it if the scarf was a little tight around your neck. >> i'm sure there's a long list. >> i'm not one of them. >> i know. listen, we're on the same team. thank you, before bashir. >> thank you, sir. our show begins right now. good afternoon to you. the big story today is hot on jobs. good day. aye am dylan ratigan. politicians finally trying to refocus the national conversation on the lack of jobs
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and need to create jobs. hearing a lot of talk to that effect, both sides of the pro wrestling aisle. where is the action from both parties and how will it work? an nbc news exclusive, president obama his own criticism he's not passionate enough about the 14 million americans out of work and the 9 million struggling to make ends meet with part-time jobs. >> i think ordinary folks understand. i spend all my time thinking about this stuff, because i'm talking to these folks every single day. i wake up every morning thinking about how can i help and when i see them at meetings, and they start crying, the notion somehow that i'm calm about that is nonsense. >> well, meantime, the house progressive caucus is now taking the jobs debate into their own hands and straight to the american people. today members announcing a 12-city summer tour aimed at
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steering the national debate away from spending cuts and towards job creation and a fair economy. >> let's get mad, you guys. and let's tell the man that we love in the white house to get off his butt and start supporting some legislation for jobs. >> minnesota congressman, co-chairing the progressive caucus sponsoring this speak out tour. he also serves in the financial services committee, and congressman ellison, explicitly, your goals? >> one, make the jobs the issue. make jobs the priority in america today. to listen to the american people so that we can take their stories and make our colleagues in congress listen to this cry for good jobs and good jobs right away, now. >> you and i both know that we have a lot of money leaving our country, both through our trade laws, through our banking laws,
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through the waste in energy into health care monopolies. you pick it. how can you create jobs if you don't reverse the flow of money out of america? >> well, you have to reward companies who create american jobs. we have to create the incentives to make sure we're manufacturing right here in america. one of the strongest members of the congress steny hoyer is championing make it in america effort. he's absolutely right to do so. you're right's the flow has to be here. but the bottom line is this. our economy is lagging, because of inadequate -- we've got inadequate -- we don't have the money to spend. the corporate community has $2 trillion sitting there. that's plenty enough and we need to get them to use that money to put americans back to work by investing in the american worker. >> i'm interested to talk a little more with you about just that. i prepared a very simple graphic to connect the dots, a graphic.
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to help all of us learn in this debate. it's simple. effectively, three think things. a bunch of money. you mentioned corporate cash. also government cash and all the rest of it. right? you have piles of cash. you then have a bnch of people, 20% of the people don't have jobs. right? >> right. >> and then you have a bunch of problems. we have energy inefficiency, people that need health care attention. our educational system is crumbling. our bridges are crumbling. if the main ingredients for job creation are money, people and problem-solves or problems that need solved we have no shortage of problems, no shortage of people and no shortage of money and yet we don't seem to be able to put the three critical ingredients for a job-take, if you will, together, and i'm interested to know what you think you can do, what others can do, what i can do, to help make the money people and problem solving come together to create jobs in america?
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>> well, since we demanded that the congress do something about it and they haven't, as a matter of fact, of 112 in congress, not one jobs bill has been entered by the majority. we're going to go to the american people. we're going to talk to them is in minneapolis, in pittsburgh, in houston, all over the country, and we're going to get them to help raise the roof and really generate a wave of demand for congress and the president to focus on jobs right now. fact is, we need people to get off the dime and introduce some bills that are going to get folks back to work. now, if it means spurring small business, spur it. a public jobs program, i'm for it, but we cannot have 14 million people out of work and no job and then 9 million more who are underemployed. this is what the drag is on the economy. if folks want to deal with the budget deficit we can do that by getting more taxpayers. the people unemployed would love to pay some taxes and pay down this deficit, but getting people back to work is the key. that's what we've got to do.
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>> i agree with everything coming out of your mouth. here the primary barrier i see to getting money, people and problem solving together to create jobs. quite simply, there are certain industries for whom it is vastly more profitable not to do this. that there are industries that pay politicians campaign donations as a direct functionality, because it is more profitable for those businesses to do that. whether in the health care industry. whether it's in the telecom industry. whether it's in banking. we saw today tom coburn's bill to end ethanol subsidies end in a procedural vote 59-40, the voting line directly upon the states dependent on corn subsidies because they're bread is getting buttered. i admire what you're doing, hope you go to 50 city. we need a jobs movement. we could debate health care,
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energy. i'd sit here every day on msnbc for an hour aday, on and on and on. the fact of the matter is, as long as the money's coming in to protect and preserve these undead interests, i'm skeptical of your ability, my ability, anybody else's ability to break this logjam. >> we got to go to them. talk about the lobbyists who try to p to persuade -- >> trying to get money to keep your job. >> some people are. the 77 members of the progressive caucus are not dependent. that's why we're going to the american people. we're going to be the american people's lobbyists. the ones who say, you know what? whe we're fighting, lobbying for the american people to have a jobs bill. we got to listen to them first. hear their stories. not just district by district. yes, we're going to my district and a few others, but we want to connect the dots across the nation that this is a
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nation-wide problem and we've got to put people back to work. you know, in 1978 -- 1978, we passed the jobs bill and said 6.3% unemployment was an outrage. absolutely an outrage. we live with 9% unemployment now and hope to get down to 6.3. we've got to get a certain sense of urgency in this thing. break the chains of those lobbyists who literally encourage members to do the right thing for their individual election but the wrong thing for working people across america. >> and when we have a list of crumbling bridges a list of schools no shortage of problems, no shortage of human beings and no shortage of money. >> in my own district a bridge fell down for lack of maintenance. why? the budget was getting cut year after year. you know what? we have literally thousands of bridges across this nation that need repaired. thousands of schools. plenty of work for people to do. let's get that money and the people and get together and get these folks working and back to
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work. an issue of political will. an issue of political will. that's why we're speaking out across america. >> i complement you for your efforts. we'll keep track of it. we need a job cake. you know what i'm saying? three ingredients. they sell it at the grocery store. money, people and problem solving. nice to see you, congressman. >> thank you. coming up, grading the gop from last night. a pro wrestling break. who booed and who scored? we'll break it down with nate silber. and clash ever the conservative titans on capitol hill. with this afternoon's huge fight over ethanol giveaways what it means for the war over taxes and government reform inside of the gop. and get ready to touch the sky. the new high-tech plane where every seat is a window seat.
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i don't think there's much resistance in my party except for people from corn states, i don't thk there's much resistance to fixing ethanol both import diet and lenders credit from the democrats. >> well, apparently there was more resistance than senator coburn bargained for. this afternoon in the past 90 minutes senator tom coburn's amendment to end $6 billion to giveaways to the corn business, the ethanol industry, failed before even reaching a full senate vote. his push to end the business boost failed in a procedural vote 40-59. not even close. as senators cast their votes
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based on geography and whether the corn industry is influential in their state. sound familiar? it's a preview of the larger war shaping up not only with the gop but in our country, but certainly in the gop right now. between tom coburn and a group of conservatives that believe we have to address true structural reform in this country and grover norquist and a conservative movement explicitly focused on tax policy and subsidies. our mega panel here to talk about this as a classic example of modern american politics. political analyst karen finney, republican strategist susan and our washington insider jimmy williams regardless of what you think about ethanol or energy, the fact ever the matter is certainly industries get better treatment, whether ethanol, oil, natural gas, solar, the tax code, subsidy and ear mark, everybody treated differently
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based on their ability to influence the policymaking process. is that a fair characterization of american energy policy and is that what we saw happen this afternoon? >> dead on. listen, it's simple. members of congress and senators are from their home states and distributes are supposed to vote according to what con stitch bents, majority, want. if i'm a corn state senator from iowa or illinois or indiana or whenever i'm voting for corn. doesn't make it right or wrong. you are there to represent your constituents. from louisiana -- oil and gas. >> what if the argument is that you accept that, but that beyond your obligation to your constituents for corn or natural gas or for the nuclear plant or the sports stadium, whatever the assets inside of the district, that all politicians, particularly at a time of tremendous change in the world and change in america have an obligates that supersedes all of that, which is to behave as a statesman or stateswoman and actually engage in a debate that can move us towards the
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resolution of major energy problems, major health care problems, major deficit problems, major educational problems, and that the nickel and dime version of politics that you're describing which has been around forever and will be around forever is inadequate to the problems that we now face? >> right. even inherent in what coburn was trying to do here there was politics. >> no doubt. 100%. >> no, a good guy, jimmy and i talking about it earlier. what tends to happen, we get into ideological debates, focusing on little pieces rather than the big picture. what are we really trying to accomplish here? >> not only that, these elected officials are there to govern. sometimes they caught up, whether the grower, now he's at war with, with tom coburn. i don't think anyone would consider senator tom coburn relaxed on fiscal policy at all. it's crazy. but you come up with a catchy pledge or are able to pigeonhole
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somebody and it happens on both sides of the aisle, not just republican or democrat, and it gets into the way of governing and doing what people are meant to do. that requires a compromise. >> it does. i have a problem. a second ago, the congressman said to the american people, of all the major industries out there, that's what's wrong. >> i said is that the barrier to -- barrier to job creation in getting the money to the people to the problems basically there are certain industries that influence government to prevent that money from being deployed in that fashion? he said, yes. >> an honest debate. it's simple. he sat there and said the 70-something members of the congressional progressive caucus don't take money from those industries. i'm here to say that's crap. absolutely untrue. i bet you a super majority of them take money from not only those industries but from the teachers and from the firefighters and from the letter carriers and from the catholic church. >> i wasn't even -- i wasn't prepared to dispute that or have the records.
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my point, until we break that chain of money, all politicians. >> get money out of politics. lobbyists are not what's wrong with politic. they've been around federal reserve. take money out of it, then there is no impropriety. i'm tired of people goading lobbyists. >> i am admiring and respecting you, but i do want to talk about the broader issue, which is we are in a high rate of change environment. in a point and time being forced to deal with bigger problems all happening at the same time. all the variables affect everything and yet the political discourse is becoming narrower, stupider and less sophisticated, more running into the hole. david brooks, who is hardly a rabble rousing wacko, more or less and establishment voice when it comes to political dialogue had a powerful column today basically arguing that the
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problems we're facing are as we described them structural, significant, structural problems. money's not coming in. money is leaving. et cetera. i want to read this, get your thoughts on why the two political parties are getting smaller and stupider as the problems are getting bigger and more complicated. first david brooks. the number of business start-ups per capita has been falling steadily for the past three decades. new jobs by the way, primary business creator not small businesses. workers share of national income declining since 1983. male wages stag napt for 40 years. the american working class, those without a college degree, being decimated. economically and socially. in 1960, for example, 83% of those in the working class were married. now only 48% are. that could be a referendum on marriage. i don't know. that's a different panel than today. pessimism and anxiety does not just reflect the ebb and flow of
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the business cycle, but is deeper and more pervasive. we've had this conversation before. we'll have this conversation on the show for as long as i'm allowed to have a show. america has structural problems. complicated structural problems from the function of our government to the way we reality it energy sources the way we deal and administrate health care, finance, the rest of it. the symptoms of our failure to deal with these problems an changes. whatever the plan is subpoena symptom isz, those not politically represented pay the price. those politically represented get coddled through this and it's not satisfying. it's not democratic. it's not working, karen, what has to happen to pierce republican leadership, democratic leadership, harry reid, nancy pelosi, john boehner, president obama, secretary of state, how do we get this into the middle as opposed to me sitting here with ron paul, gary johnson, bernie sanders talking about this all
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day? >> a big part of the problem, you say, we get focused on, stuck on the little things and lose sight of the bigger picture. that's what brooks was talking about. part of the pessimism people have, you hear obama say we're a country that does big things. i don't think there's a political will to do any big things left in this country, because i think -- >> i would say that's a copout. >> say hoover dam-type idea. >> leadership. >> who's going to have the guts to -- >> the president of the united states. >> who's going to have the guts to make that happen? >> that's the biggest problem. >> the president needs to have the guts. >> he's going to have to have the votes and the -- >> nonsense. go out there -- >> paul ryan's plan all you want. he tackled a big issue. fine. you could say it's horrible, disagree with everything which i know jimmy does, come up with something else. jump off the cliff together. that's what it's going to have to take. >> we all hang together. >> don't do it because it's -- >> that's a bumper sticker. good thing i wasn't running for president. we all hang together.
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vote for me. we're going to take a break. jimmy, karen and susan all stay. tomorrow we continue this conversation on a special three-part series, desperate times calling for desperate measures as the weakest among us, the legal politically represented, states, cities, being forced to sell themselves to private investors frequently in the middle east in order to stay afloat. we'll examine the trend in a series we call "america for sale." that starts tomorrow 4:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. up next, winners and losers of last night's big gop debate, our mega panel dukes it out. our specialist, nate silber.
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the verd's in. pundits declaring mitt romney the win e of last night's presidential debate. how did the rest of the field fare? isn't this pro wrestling for the summer anyway? mitt romney's most outspoken,
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pawlenty, opting to join the pack and go after the president. michele bachmann, surprise runner-up making news by announcing she filed papers paving the way for a run for president and also beat skeetingly low expectations some had for her performance. think of it by winning by not stinking. got to love that. our specialist "new york times" columnist nate silber graded them all on his blog and is here with his marks. mr. silver, knowing i view all this as all muttly theatultimat may be good for the political class people with my job or even yours or whatever it is. >> sure. >> but did we learn anything el vent to policy or the debate in this country last night? >> no. this, to me, aimed at an insider audience. people like you and me, donors, bundlers. regular voters in iowa and new hampshire aren't watching.
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it doesn't mat whir a candidate like pawlenty, for example, looks like he might not be willing to take on romney. the anti-romney candidate, might open up a hole for another candidate in the field. >> it struck he part of the strategy last night, everybody was trying to win by not stinking. everybody was pretty toned down. there were a few more attacks on maybe mitt than others. even attacks on obama were pretty tame, but to what we were just talking about, there were no big ideas? right? we talked about gay marriage. talk about abortion. no talk about the big idea, about the fundamental change that needs to happen, about the structural changes that need happen again and again add again. that debate you could have watched four years, eight years, 12 years ago. >> like we're stuck in a time capsule. >> one thing very interesting. when mitt romney started opening the door in afghanistan. we've been talking about we're in afghanistan to protect our best interests. then he changed it to, look,
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we're not going to help afghanistan become independent and rule themselves. they have to fight for their own independence and fight the taliban. now, that's changing the conversation a little bit to start, i think, where he's going to take this. getting our troops out. >> that was also him changing his position again, by the way. >> exactly what that was. >> other. >> it's -- >> it was something. he did -- starting to give republicans a way out on that issue. >> nate, did you pick up anything in the war in all this? >> there's not a terribly large amount of debates. i thought michele bachmann hit her marks well. breaking news she is running. suspected to. now we know for sure. and she has kind of a dual constituency. both tea party republicans and old school social conservatives, her family story is terrific. very, very, very pro-life, which will help in a state like iowa. the star in addition to romney that looked presidential. kind of the breakout star last
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night. bad news for sarah palin and maybe herman cain who had done well in the first debate. she has maybe -- in the top tier for iowa. maybe not throughout the entire field, but she really made a name for herself last night i think. >> nate, this is jimmy. i couldn't be more thrilled that michele bachmann kicked it out of the park last night. that's better than freakin' shopping at barney's. i say that as a gay man. my question for you. tell me one thing, one single idea last night. this is what karen was talking about. one positive policy idea that any of those seven people put up that was new, that would create jobs? can you think of anything that they said at all? >> you know, my job is to evaluate the horse race. seemed when there was an idea, let the states decide. pass -- >> right. because they're all swimming in money, too. >> a referendum on barack obama.
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a battle of kind of ideas. they might not win. obama still a candidate in that. how's the economy doing? failing. ideas don't matter. in 2010, not much of a platform but won 66 seats, unemployment, 9.5%. that's the paradigm they need set to win the election next year. that was evident in the debate. not the most substancive campaign next year. >> in the primaries, it's not about ideas. in the general, you may get some conversation about ideas. i guarantee it, it will feel like 4, 8, 12 years ago. primaries are about scooping up as many voters as you can. so tea partiers hear what they want, christian conservatives hear what they want soy can go back and try to raise money from them. try to get their support and hopefully through to the next primary. >> go ahead, nate. sorry.
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>> i think it's true for the most part. someone did send me a tribute of the george w. bush debate in 2000. he had a lot more substantive in his early debates. in 2008, democrats is 40-page health care plans circulating and debating about. this was particularly non-substantive and goes to really the core of what we've had in the country the past two years and what the gop's message will be next year. obama's failed economy isn't growing and case closed. they're not going to want detail about the medicare plans, for example, where they might not win the arguments. >> interesting time we all live in, mr. silver. appreciate your evaluation of the race as it develops. nate silver, the mega panel in full effect. going to be a fun year. >> it's going to be a non-substantive year. >> i disagree. you cannot -- just because both political parties don't want to have this conversation. >> we're going to have it. >> it will be had. it is being had, had all over
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the country. at some point the politicians will catch on. >> no choice. >> but political consequence to those guys. that's the problem. >> not yet. the times and the clock's a ticking. ladies, gentlemen. see you later. new wonderwoman -- wonderwoman had one. could invisible airplanes were coming soon to an airport knew ale of us? after this. [ male announcer ] bridgestone is using natural rubber,
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the day is done but hang on... her doctor recommended aleve. just 2 pills can keep arthritis pain away all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is lara who chose 2 aleve and fewer pills for a day free of pain. and get the all day pain relief of aleve in liquid gels. our nation was founded on the principle of religious tolerance and in fact why some of the early patriots came to this country. >> would i be comfortable with the muslim in my administration? i would not be comfortable because you have peaceful muslims and then militant muslims. those that are trying to kill us. >> striking comments from gop presidential hopefuls. i want you to imagine that herman cane contain statement about having a muslim in his administration and replace it with the word jew, black, gay,
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asian -- anything. the controversial conversation of last night's republican debate highlighted america inability to the acceptance of islam. not co-exist but to evolve together as the world shrinks whether we like it or not is an issue evident in the increasing number of islamic schools in america. the separation that is. hoar and more muslim parents turning to special islamic schools as way to protect their kids from discrimination at public schools. >> the discipline i learn from catholic school is no different than discipline my daughter is learning from the islamic school. >> islamic schools, the same except they teach you morals, islamic principles. >> but in 2011. why do parents need separate schools to protect their children?
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flashback, anyone? is there that much fear and loathing that we cannot resolve as a people when it comes to the islamic religion? my next guest says we all need, as she puts it, the courage to reconcile faith and freedom and we are breaking it down with the author of allah, liberty and love. it's a pleasure to welcome you back. >> thank you, dylan. >> this is achievable, your ultimate argument. >> it has to be. because the alternative is something we know only too well in this country. that's segregation, but in order to really break this down as you rightly put it, let's talk about that word segregation and about how martin luther king jr. and the civil rights movements tackled. . manage mlk pointed out in times of crisis, this is a copout. saying to those fretful about going too far too fast saying to them, look, moderation may sound good to you but it only actually
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winds up cementing the status quo. dylan, you may disagree with me on this, let's hash it out. i think the same principle needs to be applied to muslims in the muslim community. you know, those islamic schools make no mistake will be segregating girls and boys. women and men. and in doing so, i think they make the very same mistake that america made three and more generations ago. so i say to those same muslims whom you are very affectionately defending, that's great, but i say to them, understand that by calling yourselves moderates, you're actually not doing what more of us need do, have the moral courage to speak up against abuses of power with our own communities. >> and the value system of abuse of power applied universally not specifically to islam? in other words, the value system. >> right. >> then is used to defend a muslim girl who's being abused is no different than the value system that's used to defend a
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white girl or a black girl or a chinese girl or anything else? it's a, do you actually respect children, period? >> and respect humanity. the essence of what makes us all human beings. that mind sound flake toy some -- >> i don't think it does. >> in my boom, i tell the story of a young man named joseph darby, a u.s. army reservist at the tender age of 25 actually exposed abuses at abu ghraib. and the time, may 2004, president bush called these abuses -- >> isolated. >> but it was morally courageous individuals like joseph darby by exposing the truth who made president bush call these abuses abhorrent, and in fact in october of that year, the congress distinguished joseph darby with a resolution saying that your moral courage is more
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necessary than ever. i look forward to the day when in the world of islam, official recognition for moral courage will also be realized as it is increasingly in the united states. >> you're focused, rightly so and appropriately so, because you understand it certainly more thoroughly than i, on what those inside of the -- those in power positions in the islamic community can do, could do, should do, would do, in order to do their part to move to resolving think issue not only in our country but globally. i would argue in addition to that -- let me pose a question. were herman cain to make that statement about blacks, jews or gays, how would the progressive white middle class left of the united states responded? >> with the kind of outtlach i am seeing already on twitter feeds and in facebook communities and so forth. but let's understand as well
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where herman cain's elevated defensiveness about muslims comes from. this is not to excuse it. what i'm trying to do, show understanding so ke were resolve this. when a guy like major htsc hasae and moderate organizations like the council on american islamic relations says, no, no. this is not about islam, yet these are the words spilling out of his mouth, you can't blame non-muslim-americans for xramping their heads. >> sounds muslim to me. >> right. a disconnect. all we're asking for a honesty. all we're asking for is some truth to power. spoken with the muslim community so that we know that, okay. now we can trust what you're telling us and we can work together. to get this stuff resolved. right now, it's elevated defenses. we need to understand where that's coming from, no excuse it, but to solve it. >> which is an interesting
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psychological behavior, or denial, effectively, that i'm witnessing in so many different places. while you were talking i was listening to you and, okay, we're going to deny it's -- there's no acknowledgement of any islam in any terrorism when that's clearly not the case. >> right. >> the same way i did a piece on natural gas, no to jump around, fracking. it's also part of a psychology where the industry's response has been, there is no problem with fracking. >> right. >> there cleary are problems with fracking. i met the people, saw the water, read the tests. it's validated by a variety of agencies. they clearly had water. now they clearly do not have water. there clearly was a disruption to the aquifer. how do we get to the point where we say, okay, when -- this can happen. >> right. >> or there can be terrorist whose adopt muslim ideology to perpetrate terror.
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there can be fracking sites not properly run that screw up water supplies, but that doesn't mean all fracking or all muslims. >> exactly right. you asked a very important question of, how? this comes back to the issue of moral courage, and you know, it was senator robert kennedy who pointed out that the willingness to speak truth to power with your own community for the sake of a greater good invites a backlash more painful than anything from outsiders because it's coming from your own. part of book is called reconciling faith and freedom. when you speak up about abuses of power with, your professional community, religious community, cultural community, you name it, you're not attacking your people. you are saying, folks, i believe we're capable of better than we are giving ourselves credit for. so, in fact, i'm showing all of you and myself the respect to have higher expectations of ourselves and lower defenses about what others will think of
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us for reforming ourselves. that's the how. it's called moral courage. >> and we live in a time where each of us individually must summon our higher and best selves to engage the problem solving. >> particularly dill rn, when we live in relatively free and open societies like the united states. this is the privilege of liberty for god's sake what are we doing? >> yes. the book, "allah, liberty love: the courage to reconcile faith and freedom." the author, you heard her. a true pleasure. >> right back at you. coming up on "hardball," is michele bachmann what sarah palin would have, could have, should have been? where the gop presidential field stands following last night's little debate. and right after this -- how to tell if you or someone you know is a psychopath. an author who says the odds are pretty good he has the test to
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help you figure it out right after this. chloe is 9 months old. she is the greatest thing ever. one little smile, one little laugh. honey bunny. [ babbles ] [ laughs ] we would do anything for her. my name is kim bryant and my husband and i made a will on legalzoom. it was really easy to do. [ spits ] [ both laugh ] [ shapiro ] we created legal zoom to help you take care of the ones you love. go to legalzoom.com today and complete your will in minutes. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side.
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finally, a kind of weakness you rae want people to like you. no, not a weakness. tell you why. i said, why? because if you can get people to like you you can manipulate them to do whatever you want to do. >> psychopath. >> yeah. >> are you or is somebody you know a psychopath? very possibly according to my next guest it is not just the jeffrey dahmers and mansons of the world. could be your own boss. in fact, those that identify the
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crazies help giants of industries, politicians and entrepreneurs succeed. joining us now to talk about his book and hopefully not diagnose me is author of the new book "the psychopath test." john ronson. pleasure to make the acquaintance by way of tv. >> nice to talk to you. >> what is your intention with this, before we get into the test? >> oh, gosh, well, my intention was to find out whether the conspiracy theory shed by psychologists across the world was true. that 31% of regular people as a psychopath, 4% of ceos of psychopath. psychopathy is the brain remolded capitalism all wrong. seemed like a huge thought. i wanted to try and find out whether or not it was true or not. >> what sort of answers did you find? >> well, i suppose that one of the strangest and most wonderful and interesting pats of my book
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was, i went to see, remember al dunlap? >> chainsaw al. the man. that guy was -- that guy knew how to make some money. >> yeah, yeah. absolutely. well, he'd be brought in if a company needed to close down factories across america. and, yeah. always did it with a kind of quip. for instance, somebody would say to him, i've just bought myself a new car and al would say, you may have a car. tell you what you don't have -- a job. so the more ruthlessly and remorselessly he behaved, the more share prices shot up paper approached him. asked to come to his house and basically try and work out whether or not he shared the same characteristics as a psychopath. he invite immediate to his house and giant florida mansion. i went through the 20-point psychopath checklist with him. kind of amazing, because he basically redefined a great number of the check list as business positives. turned the psychopath check list
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into, like, who moved my cheese? for instance -- the first item on the check list is grandiose sense of self-worth. hard for him to know, because he was sitting under a giant oil painting of himself at the time. he said, you've got believe in you. i said what about cunning manipulative? he said, that's leadership. amazing insight, actually. >> so ultimately, did you conclude and then you're going to figure out whether i'm a psychopath or not. before we figure that out, did you conclude that more people are -- that -- was the premise validated? those who end up inside of the capital structure at the top of it tend to be more likely to show these characteristics? >> yeah. i think so. yeah. i think capitalism at its most ruthless is a physical manifestation of this brain anomaly known at psychopathy.
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all the things that make criminal psychopaths effortless, killers and manipulators, makes business people who have psychopathic traits remorseless, ruthless, they could -- they don't have deep emotions and can fire people without worrying about it. think very, very fast. positive things, i suppose, if you are psychopathy. grandiosity, lack of em tpathy, all great in business. >> my staff is wondering for weeks -- cut to the chase -- how this is going to pan out. is dylan ratigan a psychopath, twitter follower, at the ready? can we run the list quick, john? >> okay. well, a really good one is early behavior problems. dylan, when you were 10, 12 years old, what kinds of a kid were you? bully? >> difficult with the teacher. i was nice to other kids, but
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very, very difficult with my teachers. i would be disruptive. i would be distracted, disinterested. so i was definitely troublesome but not towards other children. towards management. >> uh-huh. kind of to the extend it was actual lay problem across the school, that you were known to be an unusually disruptive kid? >> i would say i was known to be unusually disruptive, yeah. >> wow. okay. what about what's called shallow affect? inability to experience a deep range of emotions? are you the kind of person who doesn't really get very emotional? >> i wish. i miss when i actually feel like i suffer an excess of emotional burden. i bear guilt for people we didn't promote seven shows ago. >> okay. what about anxiety? do you feel anxious? >> yeah. i do. yeah. >> okay. you know what? you're heading towards the non-psychopathic. the thing is,
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